Randall Avery

Welcome to another episode of Building Wealth in Mental Health. We have a special guest, Dr. Rachel Heatherly, with us. She has an interesting background. I think her study area is going to be an interest to a lot of folks. But what’s interesting about her is she started off in a traditional psychologist role and now, she’s doing something slightly outside of the box. So really take notes. I think she’ll be fun to listen to. So really enjoy this next episode.

Randall Avery

How are you doing Dr. Heatherly?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

I’m doing well. Thanks for having me.

Randall Avery

Can you please explain a little bit about what you’re doing now and about the population you serve today?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

So right now, I work for if you’re familiar with an EAP program like an employee assistance program that a lot of companies will add to the benefits that they offer their members. So, I work for a company called Crossover Health.

I’m in a fully remote position, which is really nice. So, I work as a virtual psychologist on the mental health team, we also work with primary care providers, physical therapists, health coaches and a lot of companies will hire us to have, I guess, provide care to their clients, their members, their employees and so we work with companies like Meta. Formerly known as Facebook and Amazon, so a lot of these big corporations will add us on as like a preventative care team.

Randall Avery

How long has your company been in existence, and how long have you been in the group?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

My company started in the Bay Area as part of the tech boom about eight years ago. And don’t quote me on this necessarily because I’m kind of just repeating what I’ve heard and seeing in my own research. But about eight years ago, it started as a startup. The founder, it’s a really cool story. He is actually a primary care physician himself, and so his whole model was, there’s this gap in healthcare that focuses on preventative health care. Right. And how do we address it in a model that is going to be helpful to everyone but also accessible. And so, through that they have developed different clinics on site at some of these corporations, and they also do a lot virtually now and then. Of course, the pandemic came around and everything boomed virtually at that point. So, I would say they’ve been in existence maybe around 8 years and then in the last three years or so, they’re kind of in this position of not quite a startup, but also starting to be what you would consider like a big corporation and sort of the transition they’re in. I joined November of 2021, I think. So, I just had my first-year last year. I’m rolling into my second year, and I’ve been on the virtual team the entire time.

Randall Avery

Very good. So, let’s take it back. Back when you were a child, let’s say just before high school, can you kind of describe your childhood? What was it like? What brought you joy? What were you concerned about when you were a child?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

Oh God, I grew up in a really small town in South Carolina and I grew up in around the time where we had access to the Internet, but it wasn’t quite what it is today. I would come home from school, and I would play outside. We had a big neighborhood full of maybe like 10 or 12 of us running around setting stuff on fire, building forts in the woods and so very kind of very country, very fun, very playful. A lot of background sports, a lot of pools, a lot of just fun outside time. And then I think my hobbies where I love to read, I love to be outside, I love to be around animals, and I don’t think honestly, I didn’t have really any worry at the time. It was maybe like, did the neighborhood crush of the time like me back? Maybe, but it wasn’t stress-free time. It was great.

Randall Avery

When were you first exposed to psychology? Was it anytime during your high school years?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

So, my first exposure to psychology was really the first time I took a course in in college, up until that point, I unfortunately carried, I think a lot of stigmas against mental health, where it was something that only really sad people did or crazy people. I had this idea from movies like “Goodwill Hunting” and “Girl Interrupted”, which now I know is just grossly inaccurate. But at the time, I think it just really wasn’t on my radar. In many ways, you know, going into high school, the way my town was sort of. The way things were at that time, there was a lot of like class divides seemingly. And so being from a small town, you had like the town doctor, the town lawyer, their kids were going to four-year colleges. As someone who is more on like the lower middle-class kind of outskirts my track in my head was like oh, I’m going to go to like a tech school. And I’m going to like, maybe get my associates in nursing or something or cause most of the guys went mechanics and most of the gals went hair. And so, I was really necessarily wanting any of those routes, but I know I need some type of higher education, but the four-year college experience just didn’t seem accessible to me at the time and a lot of that was just sort of my upbringing and coming from like a blue-collar family like college wasn’t on the radar. So, psychology definitely wasn’t on the radar.

Randall Avery

So how did you select college? Because of your limited exposure and limited expectations. How did you select the college that you selected?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

So, it was. It was funny because I was always smart, right? I was always in, like the advanced classes and I was always like in the class with the doctors and lawyer kids. But I just, for whatever reason did not make that connection that I could go. And then I remember having a teacher at the time I was telling her I was maybe like 10th or 11th grade and I remember her asking me like so what’s the plan Rachel? And I was like, oh, I don’t know. I think I’m just going to go to tech school and maybe do nursing or something because, you know, there’s a lot of job security in that you make you know decent money for the time you put into it type of thing. And the teacher at the time kind of had this reaction, which to this day I kind of looked back and it was so life changing at the time. Where she was like Rachel, you know. You’re so smart. Why would you be a nurse when you could be a doctor? And that was the first time I had ever heard anything like that before. And I think at the time I probably was just very flippant, you know. Just like oh. Haha. And then. But it’s with me, right? It kind of buried the seed of, like, well, why couldn’t I be a doctor? Like, why couldn’t I go? All of my friends were taking the SAT’s and touring colleges, so I took the SAT. Did really well and then applied to these schools, you know, with my friends that were, you know, Clemson, SC Lander university, where I ended up going. And it really came down to financial finances for me, right? Because I knew I was not going to get help with college just because it wasn’t logistically possible in my family. And so, where I ended up going, Lander University offered me a 50% financial scholarship, which was huge for me because then that. And OK, half the schools paid for it, and it wasn’t the biggest school. It wasn’t the flashiest school. I mean, the town was small and didn’t even really have a movie theater, but it was 50% paid for it. And I was like, I’m a take it. So, I ended up going to Landry University and had a great experience. Wouldn’t change anything, but it definitely was a financial decision. For me.

Randall Avery

So, you mentioned that your first course in psychology opened your eyes to that world of mental health. What was that feeling when you were in that class was your heart burning, was it just intellectually curious to you? Like what was it about that class that pretty much set the path for multiple years of schooling?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

Yeah, it was just very interesting. I think being in an environment where I love to learn, you know, and being in an environment where you were learning about all these different aspects of history and human behavior, and it was just so interesting to me in a way that nursing felt like. Make something that had been kind of handed to me like you should go into nursing because there’s job security in this. It makes sense, whereas psychology or just any of these things because I’d considered other majors at the time, I was like, wow, this is this is fascinating. And then there was this kind of scary moment where you know, and they’re they were very frank with it, right. It’s kind of as if you’ve taken your psych major, you’ve heard this, that there’s no money in it. You know, if you want, if you want money, you got to go to graduate school, right? There’s no money. In a four-year psych degree. But when you’re 18, you’re not hearing that, right? I was just like, OK, I’m in this House of learning. This is so fascinating. I’m, you know, invested in learning more for the first time, and I wasn’t necessarily thinking, but they tell you that, right? I’m sure you’ve heard that right. But at the time, that wasn’t on my radar as.

Randall Avery

So, when you went to college, you weren’t really thinking about how much I could earn. It was more of this is really intellectually stimulating subject.

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

Yeah, yeah, I knew that it felt like future Rachel’s problem. It did. I remember thinking, you know, because there were people, I met in college who were very like, I’m going to be a doctor. I’m going to be a lawyer. I’m going to be a businessperson, and I just remember thinking like, I’m just happy to be here. Right. Like, this is fascinating. I’m enjoying meeting new people. Getting out of my small town and it will all work out and that’s probably really naive in many ways, but I do look back and I think. There was a level of confidence in myself. I’m just like I’m going to be fine. So, I’m going to enjoy this.

Randall Avery

That’s awesome. So, during your undergraduate years, which classes were your favorite class? What really clicked? Was it a professor? What class really was able to get your brain turning.

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

The experience that really clicked for me and that was like oh, I want to take this to the next level in terms of. So, when you’re in, when you’re a psych major, you kind of have this understanding that there’s a few careers available to you. You are like your professors, and you’re going to do research, or you become like a clinician. And that’s really it, right? And now I know there’s so many other things, but at the time, that’s really what you’re. Kind of presented with and. And so, I remember at the time having this moment, I took this sexual deviance class, and I was like, this is so fascinating. We, the university, had just hired this new professor who was coming in and was mixing things up and offering like substance abuse courses and like these very interesting topics that like for like a small town. I was like, oh my gosh, we’re going to learn all this. Things and it really shaped me in the sense that we, the sexual deviants, of course talked a lot about different pathologies, different deviant behaviors in that realm. And there was a lot of conversation, a lot of conflict. This particular profession, Professor, really wanted to hear from us and engage with us in these conversations. And so that was really fascinating for me. But as someone who was kind of starting to have this mindset of like. Oh, OK. So, like, what’s the research of this look like there was this particular moment where the class was, you know, we had learned about all these things that are really off the wall. Right. Like you know, all these different paraphilias and different experiences and then the topic that everyone got so fired up about. Was ************. I mean, we’re talking about throwing books, you know? Just fervent disagreement and a lot of religious ideology came in, and I remember sitting back and like watching this class of like 18- to 22-year-olds explode over this topic with such passion when they had sort of just sat through these other things that I thought were like more like, oh wow, like, that is shocking. That, you know, I say that to say that kind of started that process, I ended up creating this massive research project that looked at the relationship between conservative religious beliefs and ************, and it ended up. Kind of spreading across campus. It was by far my most successful project. I think I have like 600 people respond to it, but it was kind of the talk of the campus because it was so inflammatory, both for that time for a small school in the Bible Belt. But I was able to take that and essentially. Building a career off it like that really started my interest in a very niche area and since then everything has kind of been shaped by that experience.

Randall Avery

It’s amazing how one thing one experience, one class. Can kind of change your trajectory so you’re in college and you realize that to make money, I, at least at least have to go to graduate school. How did you select which graduate school? What was your thought process at that time?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

I did everything wrong, Randall the 1st. Time I actually ended up applying twice. You know the all the advantages of going to a smaller university is you get like more one-on-one attention you get you get to create your own research project and have it be supported, right? But you also don’t necessarily. I think I was one. Of two people. In that class that was applying to graduate school. Right? So, there’s not a lot of support. I talked with my professors. About what to do, but I think they didn’t want to overstep, right? Or maybe there was sort of a hesitancy on my end to like to seem dumb or like I didn’t know so I kind of I only applied to three programs for reference. Most people when they apply to like graduate school or PhD programs to like 1520. So, I applied to three. And I actually got an interview at the University of Florida, and I was so excited. And I like. And for the interview day, no frame of reference and I’m super casual. I’m wearing business casual when everyone is in suits, right? And then I was very honest in a way that I shouldn’t have been right. Like when you apply to graduate school, they want to hear, oh, I want to do research. I want to give back to this university. And I showed up. I was like. I want to be a clinician and I’ll research; you know as much as you need me to. But that’s not my passion. And so, I ultimately got very far in that process, but. I didn’t get it. Picked because the person they did end up picking said all the things right, it is kind of a there is a level of calculation to it. But I will say I. Then maybe this is where my confidence comes in. I knew I wanted to go to Florida. I knew I wanted to work in this program. I loved everything that I saw. And heard I loved that particular professor that I ended up working with. So, I came back, and I remember much to my professor’s dismay, because I did get accepted into a master’s program at Clemson. They’re like, oh, so you’re going to go to Clemson, I said. No, I’m going to take the year. I’m going to fill out these rough edges, and I’m going to reapply, and I’m going to maintain this connection with this person, and I did, and I smoothed out all the edges that she gave me feedback on. And I applied the next year, I applied the way more programs, right. So, I kind of knew, OK, so I need to apply to way more, but I knew I wanted this one and I got in. But a lot of it was really just. I mean, I’m not going to say I lucked into it because I didn’t. I really did focus on that year of making myself the most attractive candidate that I could, and it worked out for me, fortunately.

Randall Avery

So how was the move going to Florida? Different climate. You know, it’s still the southeast, but it’s still a different type of southeast.

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

Florida is different, man like so Florida, I grew up in the mountains, right? So, my town is kind of in the mountains. So, and then I went to school in the mid part of the state. So, I was getting more humid, but I we moved in July. And I remember this was the first time that my dad and I hired movers, it was my dad and I and my mom and we were pulling this like little U-Haul trailer because I had spent all summer yard selling because I was broke. Right. So, I was like, OK, I have this apartment now. I got to put stuff in it. And so, I was like yard selling. All summer leading up to the move, buying like you know, a $50 couch off Craigslist that I like disinfected. And so, I was really proud cause I ended up furnishing my entire one bedroom for like 200 bucks, right! It was great and it was clean to be clear. But there was this level of like I’m. Thing and I have nothing. And so. But we did splurge on movers because my dad was like Rachel. It’s going to be July in Florida, right? And I remember at the time being like you’re right, the best decision I ever made. I cannot say enough about hiring movers, but the move was long. It was scary. It was the first time I. Was so far away from my family, I didn’t know anyone in Gainesville, and it was hot. As hell in Gainesville. It was humid. I like moving there. And within like. The first three weeks I got mono. Don’t know where I got it. Didn’t even have human contact, so I didn’t even get it the fun way. Right. Like I got it. I just don’t even know. Just Florida’s air. And then I was getting these headaches and I had to, like, double my water intake. I think I just like stayed indoors for the first month, just afraid of, like, my goodness, how do these people do it? And then of course, I’m very pale. So, I was just, like, deathly afraid of the sun the entire time I was there.

Randall Avery

OK, now what was the biggest impact as far as well, let’s take a step. Back of course, Master’s program has a financial commitment. How did you think about the financial ramifications of you going into a Master’s program? Did you receive any scholarships? Was your thought? Process after you were accepted and now, I have to pay money to go to this Master’s program.

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

So, the nice thing about that is I actually went into a dual program. So, I was actually in a PhD program and then I got my masters along the way. So, they paid me, so that’s a big distinction. I remember learning and was a big factor when I was like, oh, I don’t want to accept the Clemson one is because you pay them when you go to a master’s program. You pay, you know, whatever their thing is. And then in a PhD program, they pay you a stipend, but it’s so low and it’s also knowing what I know now it’s so they can get cheap labor from you. Right. So, the way the system is. Designed is they’re paying you enough to like technically live, but really, they’re paying you in experience, right? They’re like, oh, you get to teach, you get to work for us. We train you and from that we get to milk all that labor and. And so, I made I think my that first year I was making about 17,000. A year. And that’s just the fall and spring semester because you’re on a stipend, you have to find your own for the sum. And so that was a big panic for me because I did the fall, I did the spring, but I had no guaranteed income for summer, and it’s not like you can just, like, move back home. And certain PhD programs you can’t work with because you are working for the university. You are, you know, and you. Are putting in 60 hour weeks between your classes, you’re teaching and stuff like that. So, it was a struggle financially for sure and for me that just meant student loans. You know, that just meant more student loans and then. And I think in my anxiety I took out more than I needed, but a lot of that was I did not want to be in a position in a different state so far away from family and not have money. And so, I was. I was nervous about that. But also, I again had this mentality of that is future Rachel’s problem. With the loans. It will just work itself out because I can’t be here without them, and I knew I wanted to be there.

Randall Avery

What was the conversation with your parents concerning how much college costs did you have to console them to say, hey, I’ll take care of this. Was there some help provided? What was it like dealing with parents and still getting an advanced degree?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

So, I’m sure every family is different. So, in my family there I have two siblings, so there’s three of us very close in age. And so, I had always heard growing up. That when you turn 18, you have three options. You get a job and move out. You join the military, or you go to college, and if you pick the college, find a way to pay for it, right? It was kind of this running joke, but it just was. The reality is it was just the reality of it might probably would have been different if. There was just one kid. But there were three of us, and my family was very big on doing the same for each kid. And so, they were. Like, there’s no way we can apply for everyone’s college. So, they would help in ways they could. So, like, obviously, my dad financed the move, right? He, like got me EU haul and then the movers or my transmission broke and my Jeep, my little $2000 Craigslist Jeep, which I had for years. But the transmission blew like the first year I was down there, and it was $2000. Who has that right? And so, he ended up paying for that. Like, I think he put it on his credit card. And I remember, you know, so there are ways in which they helped, but it was a very clear conversation of, like, hey. You’re going to have to do it. This, you know on your own. And we’ll help where we can, but it’s definitely not going to be like big financial contributions. It’s going to be more of like. You know, if it all blows up in your face, you can move back home anytime type of thing. But like, that’s kind of how it was.

Randall Avery

Yeah, I think what’s important was it was clearly communicated because I think once it’s clearly communicated, an individual can make the decision that’s really best for them. So, you’re in Florida, what was your experience going to College in Florida?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

Very different. It was, you know, like a traditional undergraduate, you go to your classes, you have like this time off you make friends here the way it was in my program I was you have cohorts. So, each incoming coy. For it and for me, I was there five of us, including myself. So, I’m now in a group of four other people who were all very different from me. And at this point I also noticed where kind of like what I talked about earlier, those different sort of socioeconomic status pieces that play out. Really played out at a PhD level, or at least in my experience in graduate school, because everyone in that cohort, except for myself, their parents, were lawyers, doctors. Dressers and I remember feeling really out of place and like Oh my gosh, did I like bite off more than I could chew? You know, I also just did not have an understanding of what graduate school was. I just knew that. OK, I need this degree to make money in my field. But what? It looked like what it meant. Day-to-day, kind of what? The next 5-6 years would look like. No idea. I think I just kind of knew I needed this endpoint. And so, I just did it. And then once I got in it, I learned, but there were a lot of growing pains like. You had to be really good at sort of holding yourself accountable in terms of these projects and showing up ready to discuss because you can’t hide in a room of only four other people like you can in a classroom of 80 people. And so, you had to really be ready to talk and. Engage and do the work and it wasn’t necessarily really hard, it was just it was just a lot. There was always something that they wanted to see you doing and work on. Which was different. Whereas before, not to toot my own horn, but I really didn’t have to study things. Just kind of worked out. And now I’m confronted with a very different set of like, OK, time management. You need to read these 30 pages and be ready to discuss these 30 pages, because this professor is going to report back to your professor. How you’re doing and you’re a reflection on them, you know, and it and kind of always having eyes and evaluations being done on you in such a way where before I could just kind of show up. And this time I had to, like, show up. Because it’s competitive.

Randall Avery

Speak a little bit more on the dynamics. Individuals who have a doctorate, usually their parents, have a doctorate or some level of academic achieve some level of academic level and which usually means they also are in a socioeconomic level. So, you are coming from a smaller town. You know. Having discussions having to work with, communicating with people who usually come with the silver spoon in their mouth explain a little bit of the challenges and dynamics with that.

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

So socially, you know, when you’re in my experience, you know it was other people around my age. So, we’re all like kind of 24-25 and I think I experienced a lot of assumptions about myself. You know when my transmission broke, for example, I remember one of the ladies in my cohort was like, well, like, why are you so stressed? Like I’m sure your dad will pay for it and granted, to be fair, my dad did. But it was just that level of like it was obviously a hardship for my parents, right? It was a big thing was I recognized the magnitude and when this person said it was more of just like, why are you worried just like, get a new car? And I mean, we’re talking about people where, like their parents bought them a home in Gainesville for them to live in through graduate school. Right. Like, we’re not talking like. Like it was just such a different world in terms of experiences, a lot of them were only children we, you know. So, I think that plays a role as well. And I also think there are a lot of negative assumptions once you know I shared more about my background, there were some you know looking back on now some very negative assumptions about myself. My fax. Only I came in with a much stronger accent, you know, than I do now. And that was something I really actively started minimizing. And that makes me sad now, but at the time I’m refitting thinking, I got to fit whatever this is that I that’s here and that is this sort of. Very smart confidence. Like academic right and I look back on it now and I think it’s so silly. But there was such pressure to kind of belong and for people to see me as I belong, you know, versus I have to convince you.

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

Like I was doing a lot of convincing. I remember my mentor at the. Time told me. And I think she meant to compliment me, but at the I remember at the time being like, man, I got to step it up. And apparently these meetings that the faculty would have they, you know, talk about each student, how they’re doing, you know, what do we need to do to support them? You know, all those things. And someone had referred to me. As the little engine that could, and I remember hearing that and she meant it as a compliment. Like, yeah, you got here because I was the girl who didn’t get it the first time and came back the second time and really wanted it. And, you know, made her way. But with my background, I heard that is like, oh, you know, I didn’t love it. And so, I just think there was this vibe that I. Felt that I had to like to fit in and change myself to fit in. And I think that’s really unfortunate. Looking back now, and that’s a lot of things that have kind of followed through. My career in different settings because you know, I’ve now made meaningful connections with other, you know, psychologists who have similar backgrounds. And I just think, man, I would have loved to have had that in graduate school because in my graduate school, I just felt like the poor small-town kid who like stumbled into this room and was trying to, like, not get caught for six years. And that’s my own stuff. Right. But that is what I carried with me, for sure.

Randall Avery

What was the most impactful class that you taught? While you were in your PhD program.

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

That’s a really good question. I think the one I think the one that I find as I taught, I taught a lot. I love teaching. And when I was teaching, I taught several courses over those years. But I taught an intro into counseling, and I remember I really wanted to talk to these kids about it. Teaching them what I wish I would have known. Right. And so, I really made a point to yes, we talk. It’s about. Excuse me, like theoretical orientations. We talked about, you know, what counseling was, but I really had an entire segment talking about careers and like what that could be. And I remember my sort of like crowning achievement is I had a panel of like nine people came in that I had, like, networked and made connections and everything. From, like people getting their masters to their PHD’s to different types of PHD’s, different ages, different levels, and I had a whole class where people could ask them questions. And they ask questions about loans. They ask questions about, like, hours in hours, out moving and all these things like that I had experienced like, oh, so you get paid to go to grad school, but you don’t get paid a lot and you got to move and you can’t have a job, you know, and all these sort of logistic things. And I remember getting a lot of feedback from. My students said that it was so helpful because it’s kind of really gave them some real-world examples of what it looked like, and then a lot of my panelists, which. Hats off to them like gave them their contact information. So, a lot of them really mentored them through graduate school or connected with other people. And I think that’s really what I really enjoyed about it was being able to kind of help others and connect with them in a way that I wish I would have gotten at that age in particular.

Randall Avery

That’s pretty impactful. So, and I believe during your PhD program, you met somebody special, is that right?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

You know, and it’s very funny. My husband was around my third year. So, he got the version of Rachel that kind of had it a little more together. I remember him being like impressed by it, and I remember dating and thinking to myself. He only knew like the tape and glue that was putting this all together. But yes, I was. I was very lucky to make time and space to actually. Find a partner you know. Invest in that relationship. That’s another struggle. They don’t talk about it in graduate school, so much of your time goes into it. It’s hard to date. I don’t. I tried dating the first couple of years and there was just no space, no meaningful space for a relationship. The latter half, yes, but it definitely was, I feel. Very fortunate that I was. Able to make that happen.

Randall Avery

When I speak to a lot of postdoc programs, I find out a lot of them are married. Uh, so it’s a common thing, what advice would you give somebody wanting to find love really wants to start that portion of life while they’re still studying for school? Any advice that you would give them?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

Oh gosh. Well, I can tell you I do have advice, but I’m going to repeat some pretty uh, I don’t even know what to call it. My first year of my cohort, two of us were married and the other well, not us. Two of them were married. The other three. We’re not, and I remember one of the more chaotic professors at the time. She just. Kind of loved to say what? She wanted to say she’d been there long enough. Learned that right, but she told us, like, I think the first week. She, like, looked at the two married couple and said, did you know statistically 50% of couples going into graduate school get divorced? So, one of y’all is getting divorced and funny enough, that ended up playing out and so I will say protect your relationship if you’re going into graduate school. Get into couples you know because it definitely is a lot. It’s a lot of changes and so I think. You know, I don’t know. I look back and I think it’s such a chaotic time. It’s such a busy time. But you can make time for the things that you want. And I look back and it’s like I could have made time. I think I just wasn’t ready, but. I do think the. The challenges that come with building a relationship and grab. Especially in my case is you’re paid very little money, so you’re very poor and you’re very poor. Or at least whatever you define poor as. But you don’t have a lot of income in your mid to late 20s where a lot of similar aged people who have entered the workforce like my husband, was in the workforce at 22. So, when I met him, he was making money compared to me. I was like, this is great. Take me to dinner. But like, you know, at the time it was an adjustment for him because he’s like, you’re like, 24. And you like, why are you so broke? And so, explaining that. But then also there’s a lot of uncertainty in graduate school in the sense of like when you do a clinical field, you have to do a yearlong internship, which is a matching process. And so, you apply to places you rank them, but similar to Med school matching, you don’t really have a lot of control over where you go. And so that’s a big sign up too, I remember having a conversation with my now spouse and basically saying, hey, you know, in a couple of years, this process is going to happen, we’ll be presumably 2 years into this. Would you come with me? You know, would we do a year apart? Like what? Cause I at that point was really feeling myself in my mid 20s and I just wasn’t going to, you know, waste time for lack of a better word if someone wasn’t really ready to commit. And I look back now and I’m like. Man, you really, you were really going in hard in terms of like, are you coming with me? But it was just more of that sentiment of, like, understanding this thing is coming and like I cannot get around that. And if you are married to where you live, because I also knew at that time. I was done with Florida. I was like, this place is too hot. There are too many dinosaurs like Disney’s great. But I was ready to leave, and I basically was saying, hey, I plan on leaving, you know, with this opportunity. And I’m not coming back. And so that’s part of it, too. Kind of, just like meeting someone. And the last part, you know, I. Obviously have a lot of. Thoughts on this? It’s hard in graduate school, or it’s hard where I went with the University of Florida. Being at such a large university in a small town like it is a college town, everyone is a bit transient, like I was dating and meeting other people in PhD programs who were going on to their careers or their jobs with. You know Facebook and stuff, and so it’s kind of how do you build a life together when you’re doing your own thing? And I feel very fortunate that my partner already had a career that was established, has a very.

Pretty much go anywhere with he’s in marketing. And so that was very helpful because that meant he basically followed me for a few years. But not everyone you know is open to doing that so, but as a consideration.

Randall Avery

Last question on the relationship, what was the selling point to get him to move? Well, what was the word combination? The behavior is like somebody who, like you said, started at age 22, working probably slightly. How did you convince him to move?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

Well, Randall, it was me. No, it was just this sense of it, for I know I’m joking, but it was it was like, hey, if you. Want to be with me? And we had had a really great relationship. We were very much so connected and love. I like to think it was an easy choice, but he did take a weekend to think about it. To be fair because his whole life was in Jacksonville. His friends at that time, his parents had moved but like you know, it was a big ask and I. Is that and so I think the selling point was more, you know let’s I think what I said looking back on it, I think I said let’s try it you know cause I had also lived in Jacksonville with him at that time. I was friends with his friends. I liked our love there, our life there, right. And I remember saying if we don’t like it, we can always come back. Right. Jacksonville is big enough. I could. Find a job. I knew I didn’t want to come back. But and I. Was confident that once he got out of Jacksonville, you know, once you kind of move from your whole town, it’s different, right? And since then, we’ve bounced around, we’ve been in the Atlanta area, and he’s really enjoyed it and now he’s very much so would never go back to Florida because he now has experience. He’s a big fan of spring. He’s a big fan of fall. Those things don’t happen in Florida, and so I I’ve it was the right move, but it was it was a while there where it was a big move.

Randall Avery

That’s funny. So, you mentioned that you had to do apply to a lot of programs while. You were in. Your PhD program. Explain a little bit what a practicum is and what was one of the most impactful, impactful practicums. That you experienced.

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

So, with, you know, in the PhD program that I was in, there is a training process. And so, you come in and your first year is really just. Like classes like. Take your stats class, your theoretical classes, you kind of get introduced to like count. And then in your second year, you start doing these practicums. And so, the first second year practicum is one that they do for you. They get you a practicum at the local college counseling center, which at Florida I think is honestly the largest in the country. Or maybe the 2nd. So, it’s huge. And then after you do. That you get to pick your own. And so, they have these relationships with different practicum sites. So, for example, in Gainesville, there was the VA, the South Georgia, North Florida VA system, which was huge. There was the hospital system through the Shands, the University of Florida. There was also the local crisis center. I mean, you could go make your own. I had a friend who went to elementary school. She was interested in working with kids and devised a practice. So, it’s basically where you are. Go and you. I’m going to they pay you? Technically, it’s like you volunteer time and you work there, and you get training there. And so, you work with, you know, a supervisor doing the clinical work and then the longer you’re there and you build expertise, the more you start working more independently. So, when you do that over two 3-4 years and ideally each year. Your kind of doing something new, exploring something new. You know that by the time you’re going off on internship, you should in theory kind of have an idea of the setting you want to work in. You have experience in that setting and you’re ready to devote an entire year to it, so it’s kind of a lot. A lot of you know, for me it was a lot of dabbling. There are some people who come in and they know they’re like, I want to work in this area. I know that for a fact, so they just dedicate the entire time. For me, I wasn’t sure. You know, I had never worked in the clinical setting before, so I wanted to try them all. And then of course, I found areas that I preferred more. I learned a lot about what I liked. And then that really informed me where I did my yearlong internship.

Randall Avery

So where did you settle in the area that you wanted to specialize in? Like you said, you can do the youth. You could do adults. You could do transition individuals and transition. Where did you settle on later in? Your PhD program.

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

Uh, yes, so definitely adults. I tried the kid thing. It was not. For me, it takes a special it’s same thing about like kindergarten teachers and stuff. It’s just a special person who can relate and do therapy with someone so young. I tried teenagers. I did not care for that, so I was able to discover out pretty quickly that I worked best with adults and then through that I really preferred. To say older adults, because now that I’m older, it feels that’s accurate. I didn’t necessarily love working with college age kids like 18 to 22. There was just a lot. Of angst and stuff going on, I like to work with people like in their mid 20s upwards, right? Like I really enjoy adults with like adult problems and. Like I and I don’t mean to be minimizing, but I just really enjoyed working with adults. And I really enjoyed working in places that I had access to resources. That was a big thing. You know, when I worked at the College Counseling Center, when I worked at the VA hospital system, when I worked at the Florida hospital system. You know, when there were high needs, I could connect them to our primary care physician. I could connect them to a resource, I could connect them to a social work to kind of work through this issue, right? So, I had access to resources. Is, you know, one of the more meaningful but also stressful experiences is when I worked for the local crisis center, which offered free counseling services, but also partnered with emergency service personnel to respond to emergencies in the community as a mental health crisis counselor. And while there were tons of really powerful experiences within that. I felt really stressed doing that job because I would be. Working with people. And I didn’t have anything to offer them. They would have these high needs. There would be a high level of mental health stress, a high mental health need. And then, because they are in lower income settings or you know it’s a free therapy clinic, there was just not much I could offer. And I remember feeling really dysregulated in that process. And I. Had colleagues who. They loved it. They’re like, wow, this is so great. And I was like, not sleeping well. I was. Like I can’t. This is not. For me, and so I really appreciated that experience because it really helped me realize where I work best in. And then also I am not someone who’s so selfless that will stress myself out right. Like I also realized. I needed to feel regulated to be good. And that was not a setting for.

Randall Avery

So, when did you realize how much? You could make. In this profession, when did somebody pull you aside and say this is the average psychologist makes? This is the average psychologist in your field. When were you exposed to salary and income information?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

Graduate school. So, it the second it was the 3rd year we had a professor who I and I really appreciate him for this. He started a career in psychology seminar that was in the evenings and basically it was you could come if you wanted. I attended all of them and he would have all these professionals in the Community. In different disciplines, all psychologists, but in. Areas come in and talk about what their job was like. You know how much they made, what their day-to-day was like, how they got there. And that again was another one of those eye-opening experiences of like, WOW, I don’t know anything about what is possible. And I remember hearing from a consultant and to be honest, I still don’t really understand what a consultant is. It is in many ways her because it’s always. They’re always consulting on something so specific. That you’re like, how did you even? Get to that. She was a. Consultant for TBI’s traumatic brain injuries and movies. And she would you know, that was her thing. And I remember thinking, how the hell do you even get into that? It’s so cool. So, if you hear, I mean, I’m always keeping my ear. To the ground for. Stuff like that. But you know I and then other people who are. Like in private practice. People who worked with school systems, people who did testing for the jail system, people who did testing just privately and made bank made a lot of money. And then people at the VA and at that time you could see I’m financially motivated in many ways, cause at that time I was like flirting with these different practicums and not really solidified the VA for me because coming out of internship you made the most money there. Right. And you had a. The salary increase that was guaranteed, you had the benefits, there was a lot of job secure. Reading that and I remember thinking that’s for me. Like I want to end this with financial security cause and again, you know, thinking back to like my background, I was already kind of playing that risk game of like, what is graduate school? I’m deeply in debt at this point with student loans and I and they have that loan forgiveness program at the time. So, I remember thinking the vas it and a lot of that was learning how much they made out of internship.

Randall Avery

So, you have achieved your Doctorate, they now call you Doctor Heatherly. What is that like? Come from the town you came from. You’re a long way from home. What was the feeling? Was there a feeling of accomplishment? Was it something that you always thought would happen? What were you thinking when? You achieved your doctorate.

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

It was so surreal. I remember, you know, everyone came down for the ceremony and I remember being hooded, you know, so they hooded you in the stadium and it was it was funny because the person who was hitting me was like, significantly shorter than me. So, I’m doing like. This very powerful squat while she’s putting it over my head and there’s this picture my husband took where I’m kind of looking up at the big screen and I’m just like joy. I’m just and then, you know, emanating joy. And I remember. And then I almost bust my **** going down the stairs. You know, that’s pretty on par, but I remember feeling such a sense of accomplishment and just kind of being like, wow. I did. In it and then, like almost immediately, this sense of now what you did it right like now it’s like OK, now you have to be the doctor. You have to do the thing and it always felt also like weirdly disconnecting with my family because it’s almost not a joke, but it’s like. I don’t think. They really knew for many of the years. What I was doing like, you know, cause I remember my I think they had this assumption when I would like. Do these things. They’re like, what are you doing? And I’m like, you know, like. I don’t know. So, I feel like there was this period of six years where no one really knew what I was doing. But then once. I was done, I could say oh I have my doctor and I’m a psychologist. I work for the VA. That is something they could understand. Like the whole process of graduate school and what that meant was so foreign. It seems like.

Randall Avery

Very cool. So, you’ve accepted a job at the VA? Explain what you did at the VA, the population you served and what was the connection you had with that job at that time?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

So, I you know, I did my training, my internship at a VA, I did my postdoc at a VA and then I ended up getting hired at that same VA staff. So, by the time I got hired, I had been there like a couple of years. I knew the players. I had a reputation, so I felt I literally stopped. I ended my postdoc on. A Friday and then. I came back to work on a Monday. And just was suddenly just making more money. But I was in the same role, the same job. I was very fortunate that I was able to develop my postdoc into my job. Essentially, there was a need in the clinic that I was able to fill, and I was able to create some programming and basically create the case of like hey, this is a unique thing I can offer. You know, you should hire me for this. Let me. Do this the last half of my postdoc and show you that I can do it and it worked out, and so they hired me to continue in that role. So, I was able to kind of just transition into my job. Uh, like a warm hand off, if you will. The only thing that really. Change was the amount of money I made. I was doing. The same thing the whole time I. Just got paid more.

Randall Avery

Very cool, very cool. So now you’re receiving a full salary compensation for all the years that you’ve been studying. What did you do with this newfound money? How did that affect, you know, your relationship? What was it like earning a grown up?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

It was, it was surreal. So, you know, there were some tough years there where my, my, now spouse and I would talk about. We would just, it was almost like the delicious meal you’re going to eat at the end of your diet or you’re fast or whatever. Where we used to like to lay in bed and stress about money, and then we’d be like, you know what? Next year I’ll make twice as much and the year after that I’ll make twice as much right, because the way that it works is it almost double for those first three years. And I remember getting to that point where I was making twice as much and we just kind of had this moment where we had to really look at our finances in terms of. OK, now we’re in. We were getting by, but now it’s like OK, now you have to do the adult thing, right? You have to like, invest or whatever that means. You have to rebudgeting you know; I think we have a lot of debt from our wedding, and you know, dumb decisions you make when you’re younger. And so, we also had this sense. Of like, OK. How do we like being adults with this money? Because both of us, my husband and I both came from lower income backgrounds and had a lot of bad habits, either ourselves or modeled for us. And so, we really had this conversation. Like we want to do it differently. You know, we’re in a position to be in a very different tax bracket than either one of us grew up with have any understanding of and I wanted to learn what rich old white men do, you know, like, I wanted that type of approach to my money. And I had no idea what that meant. But I knew what I wanted. I was like, I want to, you know, just be fine and not have to worry about money and be more than fine.

Randall Avery

Yes, make that makes sense. So now while you’re at the VA, were you doing something different? Were you just doing general counseling for anybody who needed a counseling session? Was it a niche? You have.

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

So, I was more niche. So, at the VA, there’s different clinics, right? So, there’s the general mental health clinic. There’s the trauma clinic, the Substance abuse clinic. I was in the health clinic, and so was the health psychology clinic. So as a sort of health psychologist of sorts, I worked with people who had comorbid health conditions like diabetes, chronic pain, they might be trying to learn how to manage their hypertension. And so, we would sort of partner with their physical medicine team and add support in that area. My specialties in particular, I focused a lot on chronic pain and sexual health. And so that’s actually the clinic that I built for that VA is. There was a there was an existing sexual health clinic that only served a very small population of conditions and a very small population of veterans. And so, I came in and saw that there was a huge group of people being left out. And so, I was like, we can. Expand this this. Is what it would look like, and so I saw as a result. A lower-case load, which was nice because at the VA they will give you and give you tons of patients. But being in a specialty clinic, I was able to regulate my caseload because some of the folks I was working with needed to be seen more frequently or just had different needs. There’s a lot of collaboration with other disciplines, and so having that flexibility was nice, but it was definitely still a. A strong caseload for sure.

Randall Avery

How is it being kind of viewed as potentially a sex expert? Like what, what, how? How is it that you’re in the office and you’re dealing with a lot of people’s sexual experiences or sexual performance challenges? How is that?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

You know, it’s interesting. There’s a lot that goes. So, when you’re when you’re. Right, like, let me say this, there is a lot of sexism in the world, right. And so being a woman working in. This field with. You know it working with the population that is overwhelmingly older male veterans, you get those experiences where they come in and they see you and then they’re like, you know, at the time I looked younger, right? Like I didn’t have the protection of doctor right, so it was just Rachel. And so there were a lot of experiences where I had to be very. Intentional with how I spoke, how I presented the boundaries I kept with people. A lot of that changed what I could introduce myself as Doctor Heather Lee Wright. Cause then it’s like, oh, she’s a dog. Doctor, but personally I think I have such a strong background in working with sexual health concerns and Wellness that to me it’s like talking like about the weather. And I think my comfort with it puts the patient, you know, in comfort and I also do a lot of work to normalize that. You know, any type of sexual health concern. Is a part of your health and Wellness, right? And while it? It is. It can feel awkward to talk about it. It’s the central part of your health and fortunately there’s a strong intersection, or maybe unfortunately, a strong intersection between chronic pain and sexual Wellness. So, the worse your pain gets, the more difficult it is to have different types of sex. And so having those conversations with people. You know, I would get a lot of reactions from people of like oh wow I. So glad you asked me about this. This is something my wife and I struggle with, and we don’t know what. To do with it. So, I think it. Helped a lot. Of people feel seen and I think it also legitimized a part of people’s health that they don’t often talk about or don’t get asked about. And so, it is one of those things that if you ask, people will tell you. But if you don’t ask. And many providers don’t. It just kind of goes. Untreated for many years.

Randall Avery

So, any tips? That you would give to somebody who’s thinking about working. At the VA. How to survive the VA system? The VA is a different place. Any advice that you would give somebody going into that world?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

You know, it’s funny enough, even though I don’t work for the VA anymore, I have a lot of love for it because it is such an excellent training program. If you want what I consider to be some of the best training in psychology, I always say go VA. Because what they do is they are usually the first to create trial evidence-based practices. You’re going to get. The most up-to-date training through the VA. You’re going to get a really structured system that’s asked a lot of you but supports you. So, you know what that looks like for me is, you know, I got to see veterans who were high risk veterans who did have a lot going on, veterans who had a lot of complex issues. And so, I really got to experience it. OK, really flexing my clinical skills of like, OK, what can I help with? Where do I fit into this? But also having the structured support system of the larger VA system, right, medical doctors, different programs. You know, being able to send someone to rehab and explain and literally walk them through the door if needed. Right. And so, I think all of those things made me an exceptional clinician in many ways. I think the longer term is where a lot of people burn out with the VA because there is always, always like. Just a high need right, and depending on which VA you work at, you know what I was starting to struggle with is you know I was getting more and more people put on my caseload. And so, I couldn’t see them as frequently, and suddenly I was seeing people every six weeks, every eight weeks, right. Because that’s just when my next. Opening was and it didn’t feel like the type of therapy that I wanted to be doing, and I found myself similar to that. That crisis story I told earlier where I found myself sort of losing my spark or my joy for the work it kind of felt like, oh, I would get excited when someone would cancel or if no show. And I just had this moment where it’s almost like you remember in high school you had that teacher. You have the teachers who, like, were really great and life-changing and like really brought a lot of energy to class. And then you have the older teacher who is just tenured in there for retirement. They just kind of show. Up and I remember thinking, I’m going to turn into that if I stay. I remember thinking, like I don’t think I’m going to be the type of clinician or professional that I want to be if I stay in this position and. And so, I explored other opportunities and was very fortunate to find something that’s a really good fit. And so that would be. And that would be my sort of advice to people that I would wholeheartedly support training with the VA working at the VA, the level of experiences and just access to care you have is unmatched. In my opinion. But I usually think it takes a special person to go long term in the VA and I think for me, a lot of it was just. The just the slog of the bureaucracy and what that looks like. And then of course, my own personal tapping point of probably could have gone a few more years, right? But I didn’t want to be. I don’t know. I didn’t want to lose me. Spark you know, and I felt that it was dimming.

Randall Avery

So, you find yourself not wanting to lose your spark, and now you have to apply somewhere, or somebody has to recruit you. Explain the transition from your first job to now transitioning to another job, or where you’re a veteran at going to different situations because of all the practicum you’ve experienced.

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

I mean it’s so I you know I will say I’m a big, big advocate for networking, networking and college and high school and graduate school network. Wherever you are. I remember having this moment where I was presented. Saying my first year of graduate school at one of the conferences and this guy came up and he was asking me about my poster, and he was dressed basically in his pajamas, and I remember thinking like, you know, but I was raised right, right. I was raised in the South, so I gave him the same quality and attention and story that I gave everyone else, and he ended up being a department head for a major university. Who offered me a job, candidly, was like, hey, call me in five years when you’re done. This was great. Like, I would love. To hire you. And I remember my colleague at the OR my advisor at the time being. Like that is what it is. It’s like the people who are dressed down at these things are like the secret, you know, Elon Musk of these things. And to be honest, I probably if I was, if I’d remembered his name, I would have shot in an. E-mail you know, when I was doing. I have no problem about networking like that. But I will. Say you know when it came to that time of things, I was at the VA, I knew I wanted to leave, but I of course, financial security is big for me. I did not want to leave before I had something else set up like I just. That’s not how I do things. And so, I started considering like, OK, what I want to do private practice and slowly transition. You know, so basically start doing private practice like in the evenings or on the weekends, and then when I built up enough of the caseload, make the jump. Right. Or did I want to explore other options? And this is where networking comes in, because a good friend of mine had recently gotten hired at a. Company and was really loving it and they had an open position and he called me and said, hey, this position opened. Are you interested? I mentioned your name. They said to send your resume over and so I immediately sent my resume, which had recently been updated and it was ready to go, and I sent it. And yes, so I got hired that way where it just kind of letting it be known that I was available. And then of course, having these relationships really paid off in that sense.

Randall Avery

What is the biggest difference between the work you do you did at the VA compared to what you’re doing today?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

Gosh, so many differences. I so I let’s start. Like clinically, I see far fewer patients at the VA. I was seeing maybe between 27 to 30 a week, which five days I think at that time I was doing four 10s you know. That’s around like. You don’t check me on my math. But like I don’t know. 6 to 8 a day, back-to-back to back, and then so currently I see about 15 a week. And so, what that allows is a much. Higher quality therapy, right? I’m able to see people weekly every other week. And so, what I’m seeing is that they get better faster, right? Like it seems like the VA I was never getting anyone better. And so, at my current job, because I can see people every week, every other week by Session 12. 15/16/20. They’re good. And so, I’ve really been able to experience it. OK, so when you are involved clinically to this level, you see those improvements. You actually see people get better and you really see the benefit of therapy, which has been really. The lower caseload, I think really contributes to that also the flexibility, uh, one of the things I really enjoy about my current position is that. It’s virtual. So that’s nice for me. You know, I don’t have to wear pants anymore. I can work at home, you know, no one ever sees me from here below. It’s nice the commutes. Real short, but I will say it’s nice that the people I work with also benefit from that virtual service, right? I cannot tell you how many. Times people I’m working with people on their lunch breaks and they’re sitting in their car in the parking lot, right? Or, you know, their kids are at, you know, day camp. And this is just the two hours that they have. And so, it makes care accessible in a way. I think it really breaks away from this traditional idea of we need to be in an office, and you need to be on my couch. And here’s my Kleenex. I think it really makes therapy accessible to an entire generation of people who are busy and have families, have jobs, you know, have very busy lives but still need support and help. And so that’s been a big shift. As well.

Randall Avery

Are they still coming to you with the same challenges? I think the VA you mentioned, pain management, sexual health. Are you still seeing people about pain management, sexual health or is it different?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

So yes and no. So, there’s definitely, I think, a wider spread of more common presentation. So, because I work with a lot of people who work for corporations like Meta and Amazon. On I’m seeing a lot of young professionals struggling with burnout, you know, working a lot with, like managing work stress. I work with a lot of people on just like depression and anxiety learning coping skills. If you were to think of sort of the more basic mental health stuff. But it’s also the more general mental health stuff, right? Everyone you know struggles with depression or anxiety at times. Everyone is wondering. Suddenly I’m 30. And is this what I want to do with my life? Right. They kind of have these moments. And so, I work with a lot of people. Moreover, I would say, bigger life transition question. I also do a lot in my job with program development on chronic pain and sexual health, and that’s something I’m really excited about because while I still work with people clinically, it’s not like the primary driving force like it used to be. But my company has a large interest in providing asynchronous. There, so you know, handouts, modules. You know again, we work with busy folks, so you know. A video that someone can watch on coping skills versus having to schedule a therapy and talk with. Me about it. Right. And so, I do a lot of program development around coping skills, especially around like chronic pain and sexual health and things like that. So, a lot of it is exciting for me because it’s not just like a clinical work. It’s like I get to write things I get to. Create content I get to edit things like it’s just a different skill set and it’s. You’re fine.

Randall Avery

Very cool. What would be your biggest advice on somebody managing stress at work? What is something you see that is a consistent thing that pops up again and again like they had this behavior if they thought about it this way, it would really help them out.

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

I think by and large it’s boundaries. It’s probably the biggest thing I talk with folks about is understanding kind of where you fit into your work life and your personal life, where you want that to be. So, I’m a big proponent of you know what is more important to you? Work or family, right or work? Or free time? And then if that’s not reflected in your behaviors and your boundaries, then that is that conversation to have. And so, a big difference for a lot of people and one that. I’ve personally implemented. Is taking your lunch break. You know, I cannot tell you how many people work through their lunch break? Or will eat during. A meeting. And I’m always. That’s usually when the first things I say like take your lunch break, leave your desk, you know, especially my folks who work from home. Go outside. You know, like, I don’t know. Like, just go somewhere else into a different room, take that lunch break, you know. And I’m also a big proponent of you’re replaceable. I don’t know any other way to say this work will replace you in a minute. So, like you know why? Unless you own the business. Why sacrifice your physical health, your mental health, your sleep schedule for a business or an entity that will literally replace you tomorrow with needed? I just read where and I saw it literally this morning where I don’t know if you’re familiar with this, the movie Toy Story two ended up getting erased. From the hard drives on accident and the entire production was saved by this one woman who had it on a drive at home just by accident, took a home in her purse. So, she saved the entire movie. OK. And this was, like, years ago. She got laid off from Pixar. Yesterday, right. And so, I feel like that is that. And I’m going to say I’m probably going to use it in my sessions. That’s a good example where everyone is replaceable, so I always give kind of that very, you know, reality check for folks because I think there’s a lot of a lot of reasons that go into it. But I think a lot of people of this generation. And older have this, you know, work hard ethic and of, you know, sacrifice yourself for your job and you know work is most important thing and I think for a lot of people they’re discovering especially through the pandemic that was not the case or they don’t want it to always be the case and so a lot of shifting of perspectives I. But taking the lunch break back to your question, probably the number one thing I advocate boundaries and just taking that lunch break, or I don’t know, leaving your work environment just for like 15 minutes walking the parking lot can be such a just an important piece.

Randall Avery

It’s really good advice as a professional. To date, what has been the accomplishment that you as an individual are most proud of?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

Oh, my goodness. What am I most proud of? OK, so I think this is this is a bit of. Wow, I’m really OK. OK, I know I have an answer. When I was in graduate school, I was a part of this organization called STRIVE. And it was, you know, a student run organization that really provided education about, like, sexual assault prevention and bystander intervention. And I ended up creating my own position there. I think I called my self-Special Projects Coordinator or something and I basically revamped the program, and we created a lot of fun events on campus that were educational and one of them was Cupid’s consent fair, which actually is still in place today and it’s been 5-6. I don’t even know how many years it’s only gotten bigger. And I remember that being my brainchild. Right. And I remember making this huge set of wings and we had this like we paid like a local freight guy to, like, walk around as Cupid and like hand out candy. And it was like this massively attended event and we got these local students like both on campus and off campus. And so, I think seeing that because that is such a passion area of mine, but seeing it maintain and seeing it even after I’m gone, I’m pretty sure no one there is still there that I was there, you know, right. So, it’s all new people, but it’s such an. Integrated part of. Their programming now that it really feels like I. Left this like legacy piece. That embodies all the things I enjoy. Like making information accessible, making it fun, having community partners partner and investing in it as well. And so, I look back on being able to craft a giant pair of wings out of coffee filters, right? Like these things? That I really enjoy having it last, I look back and I’m like, wow, I’m. I’m really proud of that and I stuck it on Facebook. Every year and I just, I see it and I’m just like, wow. So that’s probably it.

Randall Avery

It’s good. It’s good. Now if you can tell one thing to your 18-year-old self-thinking about the emotions that you were going through. At that age. What would be the number one thing you would tell her?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

You know, I would really want to sit down and have a conversation about seeing. Like my value at that time and what I could bring. I think I carried so much of that imposter syndrome of oh I’m here at college but there’s so many people here, smart and. Me or, you know, just so much stuff at the time, I go to a small college and people from Clemson are applying to graduate school, right? Or, you know, I remember going on these interviews and it was like people from like, these big see them on football type of colleges. And I remember feeling so intimidated, and I just wish I could go back and just say like. You bring so much. Because of your experiences, you are so different than all these people. You bring a unique perspective, the things you have done are so valuable and so different. And you, you know, and I just wish I could have really sat down and, like, showed myself that there are things there that really served me incredibly well and a lot of those people that I was intimidated by or, you know, I’m not going to say they burned out, but they didn’t do as well, right. And I think they did things differently and so. I wish I could have seen my own like unique value at that time and really use that to go for it. I think I held back in many ways like I was. Uh, I was just afraid of the rejection. I felt like I didn’t belong in these spaces, and I wish I could go back and like, you know, slap myself on the **** and say, get out there, right, like you’re great. But you know it.

Randall Avery

It took me a while and for the last question because this is building wealth and mental health. When you first started your VA job, what is the one piece of financial advice you would give your younger self?

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

I think you know and it’s uh, it’s a great question if I start. And you’re talking like I’m making my big VA salary at the time. I would tell myself to live more below my means and we did that in many ways, but I think my husband and I were. Just so excited. To not be quite so broke that we lived a little bit there for a while and I think I would have told myself, hey, you made it work with that half salary the year before. Think of all the things you could do. If you just didn’t. Spend that other half. And so, I think I would have said, you know, buckle down a little bit more and just maybe get it out of the way. For ketchup. But I will say the thing that I am sort of most proud of them and this isn’t a plug, this is genuine is that we did get a financial advisor and that was changing for us because I think both Alan and I knew we don’t know what the hell we’re doing. We don’t want to be in a position where we are like. Hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck. And so, we did find a really high-quality financial advisor to kind of educate us, help us get to our goals and sort of reframe things. And that allowed me to not worry about it, which is what I love like, you know, I don’t want to have to worry about it when I have someone else to worry about it for me or just tell me what to do. I just that’s where I’m at with it now. So yes.

Randall Avery

All right. Well, thank you very much, Doctor Haley, for joining us with building wealth and mental health. I enjoyed your conversation and I believe others will enjoy your conversation as well.

Dr. Rachel Heatherly

Thanks for having me. This was fun.

Randall Avery

Take care.